Sunday, October 9, 2011

Poictesme - a French Imagi-Nation

I was looking at potential fictional French areas for an Imaginary regiment for my French 7YW army, and came across the Imagi-Nation Poictesme - Wikipedia:

"Poictesme (pronounced "pwa-tem") is a fictional country or province which forms the setting of the fantasy works of James Branch Cabell, known collectively as The Biography of Manuel. Poictesme is ruled by the Count Dom Manuel. It was the author's intention to situate Poictesme roughly in the south of France. The name suggests the two real French cities of Poitiers (medieval Poictiers) and Angoulême (medieval Angoulesme)"

If anyone knows the Drapeau d'Ordonnance of Poictesme I'd be interested :)

Update - have uploaded a drawing of a Drapeau as discussed in the comments

...and here is teh Drapeau I thought of originally...


abdul666 said...

Good choice!

I guess Howard's Poitain, the most advanced and civilized component of Aquilonia (# France), is also rooted in Poitou + Aquitaine; fittingly located bordering Zingara (Spain).
Poitain is a dreamed combination of Aquitaine / Occitania, the land of Troubadours (& Trobairitz: women enjoyed a higher status than anywhere else in Europe) and Courtly Love, with Cote d'Azur, its palm trees and orange trees. The climate is fair, the girls beautiful and sensual, life quiet, easy and relaxed, yet the Knights of Poitain are peerless in the whole Hyborian area...

Soldadets said...

Mmmmm... am I allowed some musings about the Ordonnance flag of a Poictesme Régt?

As the most commonly widespread device in Southern France is the Toulouse Cross, generally gold on a red field, a likely option might be red and yellow triangles.

Those would also be the colours of Old Duchy of Aquitaine (golden leopard on red field), not to say the County of Foix (3 red pales on gold), or the County of Provence (4 red pales on gold)...

Otherwise, you might take as a basis the Coat of Arms of Duchy of Gascony, quartered blue and red...

Lots of options, to your fortune :)

abdul666 said...

"…the tall rich grass waved upon the plains where grazed the horses and cattle for which Poitain was famed. Palm trees and orange groves smiled in the sun, and the gorgeous purple and gold and crimson towers of castles and cities reflected the golden light. It was a land of warmth and plenty, of beautiful women and ferocious warriors."
Robert E Howard - Hour of the Dragon

As I remember, the device on the banner of Poitain -following Trocero in battle- was a crimson leopard; no word on the ground, but gold would make sense. Then what about *reversing* it, i.e. a golden leopard on a crimson field? Actually no other than the leopard of Aquitaine (the province called Guyenne after it came back to France after the 100YW).
In the 18th C., more likely on a coat-of-arms than filling a whole flag, at least for the infantry?

abdul666 said...

To look 'French' the infantry flag would display a white cross - but a Toulouse cross, for a change. White on white for the Drapeau Colonel, white on the regimental facing color for the Drapeau d'Ordonnance?

freecloud said...

Ah, the Toulouse Cross (I thought it was the Cathar cross) - and teh Catalan sripes - now that's an idea!

freecloud said...

One assumees that Poictesme would be wine producing, non?

abdul666 said...

Of course !

A likely 'Real World™' exemple from the area is the land of Armagnac , which produces reputable white wines, but where a part of the production is distilled to produce a brandy (less widely known than Cognac, but reputedly better according to connoisseurs). Meaning that, in the same way as Bordelais produces Pineau and Armagnac produces Floc, a local speciality could be a sweet 'fortified wine' 'vin de liqueur' : "Pinenssac" here?

I don't know 'The Biography of the Life of Manuel' series, thus don't know what type of 'local' names James Branch Cabell used. But in 'Real World™' typical names of the area end in '-ac', such as the Monbazillac & Saussignac wines and the (historical and literary) Cyraano de Bergerac. The most famous purely fictional character from this region is the Baron de Sigognac from Gautier's 'Capitaine Fracasse' : '1630. A troop of comedians prepares its new show ' Il Capitano Fracasse '. The Baron de Sigognac, to whose ruined castle the artists take refuge during a night of thunderstorm, follows them. The Baron falls in love with the actress Isabelle, to the point of joining the troupe and replacing Matamore after his death to become then Captain Fracasse.". The story is set in the time of Louis XIII and the 3 Musketeers (and more enjoyable reading imho) but this proud if rather poor noble family for sure still exists in the 18th C. and could well give a senior officer to the Poictesme regiment (some 'elite' regiments proudly keep their 'venerable' name regardless of their current Colonel: The 12 'Vieux' -Picardie, Provence...- and the 'Royal' regiments).

abdul666 said...

While uncommon, it was not impossible to a French infantry flag to display some heraldic device on its center, re the Compagnies Franches de la Marine, the Grenadiers de France ...
The Drapeau Colonel always had a white field -the cross, if any, was 'white on white' - but is some cases the charcteristic heraldic device remained in full color: Royal Deux Ponts , Grenadiers de France ...
Thus a possibility could be an all- white croix de Toulouse with its 'central balls' touching the edge of the (square, by then) flag; with a semis de fleurs de lys if 'Royal-Poictesme'; with over the center a coat of arms displaying the Leopard d'Aquitaine -maybe with vine grapes as supporters to highlight the wine-producing pride of the area?
Field white for the Drapeau Colonel; for the Drapeau d'Ordonnance either alternated red and gold quarters, or yellow whole field with a red Burgundy cross?

Salvador said...

You should remember that historically the region which Poictesme encompass was only forcibly incorporated to the French country and then that was after long and bloody wars.

So in the event that an more or less Occitanian ImagiNation is used, we should guess that some way this ImagiNation managed to remain independent. Maybe Simon de Montfort was killed before, or maybe the Tolosans won a crushing victory against the crusaders.

One way would be that Muret in 1213 ends with an Occitanian victory after Pere, Count of Barcelona, dies in battle, and then the crusader contingent is annihilated instead of making a follow up charge against a disorganized and demoralised enemy.

Then the Tolosan conflict could end with an agreement to be freed thereafter of any obligation to both French and Catalan authorities (the Catalan sovereign was feudal lord to the Tolosan count, who after Muret and so, became vassal to the French king). In practice the Occitanian region would become French allied but still strongly independent minded, having avoided much bloodshed and colonisation by the French.

But either way the Occitanians would plainly not display a French (or French like) heraldry. So the Occitanian cross all the way. To dispaly it on a coat of arms as MSr. de Monte Cristo said would be both nice looking for army units and permit to make different coloured flags for every regiment, using the background colour as indicative of the regiment.

For example, the Comtal Garde of Toulouse would dress in red uniforms with yellow facings; their flag would be the Occitanian Cross on a coat of arms in a yellow field, with red devices or little coats of arms in the cantons containing the Occitanian Cross. I'm making a false assumption here that French would become the language of the ImagiNation, but
Occitanian would be instead their tongue. It would make for both exciting and exotic names for the general public.

I leave two links to an automatic Occitan-Catalan translator although you'll have to use Google (for example) to first translate a foreign language into Catalan and then Catalan into Occitan:
And here a page on the Viquipèdia (Catalan wikipedia, on the left you can swith languages).

abdul666 said...

Salvador I was to write 'create your own Imagi-Nation'!, then I checked your profile, went to your blog and discovered that you already did it.
Well, not an independent (part of) 'Occitania', but Catalonia. And given historical precedents and the shared culture, in your 'time line' Catalonia can well stretch North of the Pyrenees, to include Roussillon for instance (and maybe a larger one than the Comtat de Rossello which became French only by the Tractat dels Pirineus of 1659).

Note that a totally independent 'Occitania' requires a far *bigger*
'What-if?' than independent Catalonia. The war you refer to was not merely an invasion of Southern (more advanced, evolved, sophisticated, tolerant -and less 'sexist') France of 'Langue d'Oc' by the 'Northeners' of'Langue d'Oil'. It was a *Crusade*, and the Papacy, if not the French King, would not have tolerated the survival of a country protecting the Cathar 'heresy'.

Other occasions can be envisaged further East: Richard the Lion Heart was more Franco-Occitan (he wrote poems in French and Limousin) than English. Gascony also was English. But after the 100YW it would be too late, the French central power was already struggling to reach 'natural borders'.

Actually the less unlikely proposal would perhaps be an 'independent' Gran Roussello under the 'co-protection' of France and Spain (or France and independent Catalonia) on the model of Andorra?
This would not prevent the use of the so-called 'Croix de Toulouse', so much the more as originally it was common to Provence and Toulouse.

Btw, the claims of modern regionalists notwithstanding, there is not, there never was an 'official', unified 'Occitan' tongue. The Occitan area, from Limousin to the Pyrenees, from the Atlantic to the Rhone, was never politically united; there never was a central power to set an 'official' Langue d'Oc in the same way as the Langue d'Oil spoken in Paris became official, academic 'French'.

abdul666 said...

A given area / country / land may receive totally different names in different tongues, generally for historical / political reasons. For instance the portion of Southern Austria annexed by Italy after WWI is still called 'South Tyrol' in Austria (Tyrol being an *Austrian* province) and 'Alto Adige' in Italian (Adige being an *Italian* river)!

Thus the country called 'Gran Rousello' in Catalan could well be known as 'Poictesme' in French...

Salvador said...

Interesting, but let me point out a few things.

Regarding an unified tongue, take into account that such an enterprise would not be undertaken until at least the modern age.

The Occitan states did not encourage or protect but tolerated catharism. The feudal lord of these countries was at the time of the Albigensian crusade Pere of Barcelona. He was actively pursuing the minorization of catharism but did not do so with the bloodthirsty passion that drove the crusaders (who had more mundane interests to fuel their zeal after all).

Pere died at Muret. At the moment he had the privilege of being a vassal to the Pope and ruled on an effective force to reckon. The Catalan monarchs had the backing of a powerful state in the form of the confederation which is known as the Crown of Aragon and then the Occitanian holdings. Had he had time enough to organize such a macrostate, the resulting entity would undoubtedly have been a primary power in western Europe and the Mediterranean area.

It was so that the French monarch ruled out the chance to be involved in such an enterprise as the crusade and only took interest when the war was won.

But, on topic, I've thought that Roussillon could be a contested area by Catalan (my take here: and southern French ImagiNations. The existence and almost independence of the latter would make the bigger states in Spain or France feebler so they could impose only a tribute or vassal condition so the frontier politics in the area would be reckoned with by the said ImagiNations.

All in all, an interesting location. Poictesme has a long way to run by itself and great opportunities both in her past and her future.

Just imagine what many adventures can be had in a land where the Catars had their fortresses and mysteries, where Mary Magdalene is said to have disembarked with Jesus' kids (the sang real?), where courtly love and chivalry were developed, the place of birth of great characters (the crusader Raimon de Tolosa for example), a land of old stories, dotted with imposing mountains and forests...

Salvador said...

By the way Poictesme would be more or less north of Roussillon, enough as to make both independent areas

abdul666 said...

If the equivalent of the Treaty of the Pyrenees which in this 'time line' set the fate of Poictesme was signed between Gallia and Hispania (Versailles and Madrid) then it would fully justify the Burgundian crossed red 'knotted stabs' on a drapeau d'ordonnance.
So much the more as after the WSS the Bourbon line chose to keep it.

On the other hand, if the treaty was signed between Gallia and an already independent Catalonia (i.e. if Catalonia was already an independent, sovereign state, before the WSS), then the general field of the flag would more likely display alternate vertical red and yellow bands?

freecloud when adding Poictesme to the 'EvE' avatar of the multiverse, you created a kind of Frankenstein monster...
Then of course there can be more than one Occitan-speaking sovereign country in this area. More than one member of 'EvE' owns and fields a French army, or an Austrian one.

And anyway Poictesme can provide both Bourbon France / Gallia (or whatever) and Catalonia / Galatea with professional regiments. Royal Deux Ponts was in French service, and the regiment Zwei Bruecken in the Austrian one...
But don't forget the War of the Quadruple Alliance (when a huge miracle, France and Great Britain were on the same side!): France / Gallia may now feel closer to Catalonia than to Spain, Bourbon family links notwithstanding?

Btw I suggested to Poictesme (because of the pleasant descriptions of Poitain) many features of Gascony combined with a Roussillon (+ or?) part of Languedoc location because Gascony enjoys a far better reputation for its wines (the part of French 'Occitania' close to the Golfe du Lion specialized long ago in the mass production of cheap red 'push to crime' wines) and more geberally for its art de vivre.

freecloud said...

I'm thinking that a drapeaux with white cross and 4 quarters of red and yellow stripes might work, and a colonel's colour with the Cross of Toulouse on it would work

abdul666 said...

Looking forward to discover them!

Salvador said...

Freecolud, let me suggest something else on the line of what you said which may be more "historically" proper. As the four red striped golden/yellow flag makes use of the Catalan royal sign, you could use the Tolosan golden/yellow cross on a red field for the quarters of the flag, with a white cross separating them. Such a flag would claim the Occitanian origins of the state just as its French supporting.

The Colonel colours could be heraldry inspired and then contain variations/likes of the Catalan royal sign which by the way is said to have been derived from that of Carcassona, this being said to be the one of Guifré/Jofre (that's Wilfred), the historical "founder" of the Catalan "state" (then a collection of counties, but united by common goals and shared culture and ethnic-cultural origins).

Also, it makes for a flag very alike the one you sport. In fact yours could easily become a Colonel flag in a Poictesme regiment. It would make so just using a Catalan St. Jordi (Saint George) flag but on a golden field, then reversing colours to look alike the flag of Poictesme. Saint George was patron to Catalonia and the Cross of Saint George was the Catalan (army) "national" flag, used by troops levied/recruited by the Catalan government institutions, for example.

In fact AFAIK there were several French flags which sported yellow crosses instead of white ones...

Salvador said...

By fault: I was confounded as the flags I recalled were Scottish ones sporting yellow St. Andrew's crosses.
The yellow cross appears on St. David's coat of arms and flag, being patron saint of Wales.

Still I think a white (or yellow) cross on a red field with Tolosan crosses on the quarters would make for a colourful and beautiful ImagiNation flag.

I read somewhere that fever for crosses as symbols started at the crusades. And talking about that, I'll make a following post (to not make this too large) whith something which could be of some interest for you.

Salvador said...

OK here it is. A good deal of Googling has brought this to surface, and it looks very promising:

Pierre II of Courtenay (, Emperor of Constantinoble. Watch his coat of arms as Emperor.

Here is some info about the Latin empire:

As son of Peter I of Courtenay he was brother to Alice of Courtenay, Countess of Angoulême, mother of Isabella of Angoulême, who was suo jure Countess of Angoulême and queen consort of England as the second wife of King John. She had many offspring and one of her daughters married Raymond VII of Toulouse, who after being defeated had to marry his daughter with the French king's brother and thus later his domains passed to the French crown.

BUT... In a desperate gamble, Raymond could have tried to save his dominions by donating it to his wife's cousin, Robert of Courtenay (Robert of Courtenay), then Emperor and in a desperate situation too. After all Raymond could claim an obligation to crusading coming back from Raymond IV of Toulouse, who was his great-great-grandfather.

Robert would maybe not have renounced to his newfound Occitanian domains which could be a source of income to keep his rule as Emperor. The French king's ambition should then have had a serious moral deterrent and, being the Latin Emperors in the dire and struggling financial and military situation they were, he could have somehow made them vassals in exchange of a sume of money, for example.

Robert's son, Baldwin II of Courtenay, was the last Latin Emperor. After losing the Empire he went back (by several stages) to France. He could perfectly have done so to his own dominions in which would become Poictesme. He looked for help to recover the Empire from Charles of Anjou, the King of Sicily by conquest from 1266, signing the Treaties of Viterbo, and Charles arranged the preparation of an expedition to reconquer the Latin Empire. Their hopes were thwarted by the Sicilian Vespers which sparked the War of the Sicilian Vespers which ended with the Peace of Caltabellotta.

Meanwhile, Baldwin's son Philip I of Courtenay married and had a daughter, Catherine I of Courtenay who in turn married Charles of Valois. Her only son died very young. She had three daughters, the youngest becoming Abbess of Fontevrault. Her elder daughter Catherine II suceeded her as titular Empress of Constantinople. Her daughter Joan Could perfectly have inherited her "Poictesme" domains. She married Robert III of Artois and had many offsring. Her youngest son, Charles, renounced to the county of Longueville in favour of that of Pézenas, in the Mediterranean coast of Languedoc, further north of the Roussillon. His only son died young and his domains reverted to the French crown.

BUT... Maybe Charles had a son who lived on to be the founder of the future ruling house of Poictesme...

As you can see you can make a credible line to create such a ruling house for a credible state of Poictesme. And you can easily justify a double aversion to its southern neighbours, both by "natural" frontier clashing and by resentment because of the interference which in practicality ended both the chances to recover the ancient rights to the Latin Empire and to reconquer it.

And this land, being loosely linked to the French crown to which it makes a staunch and valuable ally, is large enough as to remain independent but small enough as to not represent a threat to France.

That's all. Hope (really) it is helpful to you!

P.S.: Also, independent (although francophile) ruling on the southern French coasts make for very credible small states, like Monaco or for example Monte Cristo ;-).

Salvador said...

And you can take a look to the coats of arms of the Principality of Achaea, of the counts of Angoulême, the Latin Empire and the counts of Tolosa for inspiration.

And now that's really all.

abdul666 said...

Exciting suggestions!
To create an Imagi-Nation, from its historical roots to its current political situation, Court intrigues and of course flags and uniforms, is not only enjoyable but enthralling.

And remember, Space as well as Time are *elastic* in the 'Emperor vs Elector' universe.
Space: several Imagi-Nations co-occur on what was a single country in 'the Real World'; besides, when some historical prototype 'has' a major representative: Gallia / France, Gross Hesse-Seewald(*) / Prussia... other 'EvE' members own and lead French or Prussian armies. While Austria and Russia are not represented by an Imagi-Nation / blog of their own (and thus don't appear on the 'EvE' map, being overlaid by Imagi-Nations), several members field Austrian or Russian armies (indeed the Austrian efforts benefit from a coordinating blog)...
Time: while most of 'EvE' countries appear to be 'living' by SYW times (at least according to the cut of the uniforms: miniatures manufacturers not grating a similarly generous treatment to the WAS), Defiant Galatea, Beimbach-Schoenau during the reign of Reichsfuerst Hubertus II, Herrschaden (with its hereditary mortal enemy Langdouc) are depicted during the WSS and a 'What-if?' Poland (perhaps not yet a member of our 'League'?) even a little earlier.
Thus, there can well be more than one incarnation of the same historical -or fictional such as Poictesme- country (I already know of an other 'What-if?' Catalonia) in the merry 'EvE' world, 'living' at the same or different times of the Lace Wars.,

While Monte-Cristo, like Tanelorn, is the very same in every setting at any time...

*: What about Alt Hesse-Seewald and its green-clad infantry?
Any news of Milady de Winter, btw?

freecloud said...

Well, the choices for flags look good, any thoughts on the uniform facings? Apart from the one Lorraine regiment no-one has yellow facings (and they go to black by SYW), I was thinking hat and a red waistocat may go look good. Hat band yellow as well, of course.

Of course, in WSS and WAS the regiment may well have a yellow coat too!

Salvador said...

In the Defiant Principality blog (VERY recommendable) you can find a visual depiction of an WSS "outsider" and little army based on a real one:
You'll see there's a yellow coated regiment.
I think Poictesme army could perfectly be represented with French units, with light infantry (which was usual in the region bordering the east Pyrenees). You could use a French foreign (Irish?) regiment with a red uniform faced yellow (Clare's?) as you can see here:
You could even build a foreign brigade for your French army, be it Swiss or Irish, whose red uniforms would make a pretty and logical core for a Poictesme army, complemented with off white and blue clad units. After all the French army had that variety... And a simple flag bearer swap to change flags for the unit would make a Poictesme army become French or vice versa.

abdul666 said...

How rich and inspirational is 'Eve' "brain tank"!
Actually 'Emperor vs Elector', just like the 'Plain of Glittering Stones' in the 'Black Company' series, connects several parallel universes. Regarding the involved area, in most Spain is 'as we know it', but in at least one 'avatar' includes Scandalusia. Catalonia is fighting for independence in Soldadets' version, seemingly already so in Salvador's one; Poictesme currently exists only in two 'avatars' of 'Eveurope', those of Freecloud and Salvador -maybe including Roussillon in the first version, while in the second Roussillon is Catalan and Poictesme geographically limited to the Southern part (half?) of Languedoc (but with Gascon feature, for their charm and to fit the idyllic description of the Poitain ancestor?).

Don't worry -it's basically the same everywhere in Eveurope. Makes exhaustive mapping difficult (countries overlap, so can be represented on a 2D map only by the projection of their 'gravity center'), but thanks to the friendly, genial nature of the 'EvE' brotherhood it works perfectly!

Btw, at whole Europe level, a far deeper 'What-if?' would be that Louis the Pious had only two male heirs: without Lotharingia; that stretch of land astride geographical divisions which, from Flanders to Savoy and Nice, was for 11 centuries a disputed area between Francia Occidentalis / France and Francia Orientalis / Germany, European History could have be far more peaceful (not a good point for wargamers).
But with so old a departure from 'our time line', with the accumulation of 'butterfly effects' there is no reason to believe that by the 18th C. European men would have worn justaucorps and tricorne: fashion largely results from a cascade of 'historical accidents', unpredictable and not reproducible.
Simply try to imagine what the French army would have looked like by 1814 if Bonaparte, successful in Egypt, had followed Alexander's steps and is now fighting Wellington for overall control of India? The divergence from our History would not be older than 15 years, yet certainly they would be different from the 'historical' one. My own guess is an evolution of the special 'oversea' lightened uniforms 'designed' in Egypt (by then Bonaparte used light blue as his livery color...), but your guess is as good as mine.

abdul666 said...

Re. uniforms, during the WAS French infantry still wore a waistcoat of the facing color. While in Spain some regiments instead had the breeches of the facing color...
I doubt you can find the corresponding minis ('paint conversion'?), but French 'Regiment du Roi' had braiding on the waistcoat, shown red on a blue waistcoat in Mouillard. Thus one regiment can have red facings / yellow braiding, the other yellow facings / red braiding?

Historically the cut and buttoning of the pocket flaps and cuffs were distinguishing features, but most minis would be 'generic'.
Collars and turnbacks were appearing in French infantry by WAS times.

Anyway, foreign regiments in French service often departed from the 'standard' French uniform. Some details of the Irish uniforms were reputed of 'British' origin, the Swiss had their own peculiarities...

freecloud said...

I suspect if Poitecsme is in France proper they would be grey/white coated. If it was on teh Spanish/French borders it could be independent (in the books I think its just a region of France).

I have an un-named battalion in my French army, and was thinking of an Imagi-Battalion to join my Swiss Imagi-Batalion Valais. I was planning to do Regmnt Bearn, but getting in the Cathar cross (see my drapeau addendum to the blog post above) is far too tempting

abdul666 said...

Very good and appropriate flag indeed! Perfectly 'credible' and 'in character'.

Given the white cross became the French symbol when England chose the cross of St Georges (I believe that at first French crusaders wore a red cross and the English a white one?) it could be used by any 'French' country -be it a province or and independent state- that was never under control of the English dynasty. Then, Lengadoc passed directly from the authority of the Count of Toulouse to that of the French crown...

abdul666 said...

Both flags are nice and potentially appropriate.
"I suspect if Poitecsme is in France proper they would be grey/white coated. If it was on the Spanish/French borders it could be independent (in the books I think its just a region of France)."
In all likelihood Poictesme, regardless of its status, is on the Spanish (or Catalan?) border. On the map it reaches the 'lower edge of the map', with a seashore obviously taken from Western Golfe du Lion (and Poitain is on the Zingaran border).

An unsolved question (probably irrelevant to your personal project) is that of Roussillon: in your *own* avatar of 'Eveurope',
- did some Traite des Pyrenees gave it to the Northern power -then it would be part of Poictesme, again regardless of the status of this land.
- Or is it still Catalan / Spanish, as it was (Aragonese, to be precise) when Languedoc came under direct French control -then (part of?) the Southern border of Poictesme would be with Roussillon (actually 'Rossellon' if Spanish, 'Rossello' if Catalan).

- Unless Rossillon is still a disputed territory, provisionally treated as semi-independent under a 'co-protection' of France (or Poictesme if itself independent?) and Spain (or Catalonia), in the manner of Andorra? Note that at first the 'Northern co-protector' of Andorra was not the head of the French State, but the Count of Foy: thus even if a French Province Poictesme can be the official 'co-protector' of such Roussillon.

The second flag you give (your initial project) could well be that of an infantry regiment in French service recruited in 'not French' Roussillon -or made of Catalans in exile, in the manner of the French 'Irish' regiments; in any case a 'foreign' regiment, thus probably in colored coat.

Then Poictesme itself can be 'semi-independent' but closely associated with France, somewhat in the manner of Lorraine during the reign of Stanisław Leszczynski? Then, the Gardes de Lorraine wore the colors of Stanislas (yellow coat with black facings) and even kept them for some time when they became the French regiment 'Royal-Lorraine'. Thus a Poictesme (or Royal-Poictesme) infantry regiment using your flag with the Croix de Toulouse can well, if you wish so, be in red coat with yellow facings, or the opposite...

Actually you do designed *two* (excellent) flags and have potential uniforms for at least *two* infantry regiments :)

Soldadets said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Soldadets said...

Beautiful flags both, Sir!! ...I'd actually have a major issue in selecting one of those...

Perhaps you'll have no other chance than extending your provisions to 2 new Regiments, instead of just one!!! :D

Otherwise, please let me know which one are you finally discarding --for I might re-use it for my own machiavellic purposes... ;)


abdul666 said...

*Two* regiments?
I was thinking of two possible *foreign* regiments, one with a red coat and yellow facings (maybe also the smallclothes?), probably for the 'red' flags with the Toulouse crosses, the other in yellow coat with red facings (by default for the other flag).

Now, if you are envisaging regiments in 'off-grey' coat to look more 'French', the one for the 'red flag' could have red facings, thus this suggests another one with yellow facings. To differentiate them from 'historical' units with similar facings, they could have the waistcoat of the '2nd color': yellow for the first, red for the other. Uncommon but not unheard of: the 'Regiment du Roi' had a peculiar waistcoat.
So we are now speaking of *four* regiments...
And then I'm sure you could find, among the suggestions along this thread of comments, two other flags for these potential 3rd and 4th regiments :) :)

Then, given your current painting schedule you have plenty of time to think about it...

Btw in several foreign infantry in French service the Drapeau Colonel indeed had a white field, but bore a different design than the Drapeau d'Ordonnance (the coat-of-arms of its colonel or country of recruitment, generally), without the white cross.

Salvador said...

Love your Occitan Cross flag! Although I would not call it "cathar" in a catholic country ;-).

For the uniforms, I guess it will be far easier for you to dgo the off white way to take profit of your existing French troops.

Red uniforms were worn by French foreign regiments like Irish and Swiss ones so each and every troop of the Poictesme army could "play" as French.

A spare standard bearer is all you could need to work that "magic". By the way the second flag you put is very alike that of French Regiment Bearn (too much?).

There were several French regiments which had different devices inside the white crosses on their flags (Toulouse, Royal de la Marine and other Royales, Bretagne...).

So one quick, easy and likely solution for Poictesme regimental flags could be that of putting Occitan crosses on the white crosses of their flags. If Poictesme is a staunch ally of France, some kind of brother (or nephew?) kingdom or duchy or etc., it would make a lot of sense.

In fact you could just pick French regiments of the Poictesme area and translate them into Poictesme service (and French when needed) with maybe a Poictesme Guards regiment or more and foreign ones to add variety...

Salvador said...

By the way as Poictesme should occupy an area just north of the Roussillon, I had thought of the latter as a natural border land which would be a classical battlefield between Poictesme and Catalaunia.

Formerly it could have been an integral part of the Catalan state just like in "real" history. After the Treaty of the Pyrenees Spain would have ceded it to Poictesme rather than France as a minor diplomatic victory (Spanish diplomats had an awful performance at the negotiations; it would not be so bad now). But it was against the Catalan law so it was an illegal concession/agreement in fact and tha Spanish willingly ignored that.

After Catalaunia (re)gained complete independence, Roussillon would logically become an issue of first priority for its government. After all the old people in Roussillon could still have been born as Catalans. So a good many years later it is still unresolved and with both states eager to claim those lands as theirs... (Just google Angelets de la Terra and translate it to have an example of such unstability).

Oh! A last link for French flags:

Salvador said...

Ouch! I forgot to comment (really not trying to hijack this) that Roussillon was not Aragonese. Never. It was a dominion of the Aragonese kings, who were so as Counts of Barcelona and heads of the Casal de Barcelona.

It was culturally (and ethnically) Catalan. The Aragonese maybe had such relationship with Bearn although it is very doubtful as Bearn was Occitan and the Aragonese were Hispanic. The Catalans on the other side were of the Occitan trunk too, hence their close relating to Occitània.

In fact the legendary founders of Catalonia included Foix and other territories in Occitania, and the Counts of Foix were close relations with the Catalan noble houses...

freecloud said...

Royal Poictesme is a very good idea, the red and white stripes with the Toulose cross in the centre of the white cross. I'll do that I think.

Btw re flag bearers, I use brass wire so its just a matter of slipping one flag on and onther off :)

abdul666 said...

I referred to Roussillon as 'Aragonese' not culturally, neither in relation with 'Aragon proper', but because Catalonia was part of the 'Aragonese kingdom(?)' during the Croisade des Albigeois.

[Now hijacking the thread...]
Salvador, for some reason I can't post comments on your two 'Alternate Catalan History', the 'General' one and La Santa Espina devoted to the 18th C.. The comments are 'accepted', do appear after 'publication', but have disappeared when I re-load the page.
Odd because I can post comments as usual on other blogs. Then, the same also applies to a blog devoted to a 'What-if?' wars of Polish Succession. A matter of common template? Previously I posted comments on this blog and yours without difficulty; now, all these blogs are from Spain: coincidence? Did Spanish Blogger turned whimsical?

Back to topic, a link to the flags of Royal-Deux Ponts showing how different could be the Drapeau Colonel and the Drapeau d'Ordonnance (even without the 'French' white cross, in this case) of a foreign regiment in French service.

abdul666 said...

Maybe relevant to Poictesme even if it is now a French province: while 'French' the Regiment de Bretagne had peculiar, 'off-standard' colours (the Drapeau Colonel is even of a type seen 'normally' only for a few foreign regiments). Maybe an acknowledgement of the peculiar status of Brittany? *Theoretically*, as for England and Scotland, the Union between Brittany and France was supposedly not an absorption / annexation / *merging* and even the Act of Union of 1532, while 'betraying' the original 'contract', acknowledged traditional liberties and peculiarities of what was now a province.

Plenty of French Ancien Regime flags here (site in French, but easy to navigate; flags of other countries / period upper in the directory; the site can also be searched by *French* keywords).

Salvador said...

No problem, the beauty in these contributions is on the information we can gather from other people.

The Aragonese kingdom was independent of Catalonia and vice versa. They just shared participation in a confederation of states with the Valencian and Majorcan kingdoms (Majorca included Montpellier by the way).

Roussillon was a part of the Catalan Principality, that's why I said so before.

Because of historiography, the denomination as Crown of Aragon has made its fortune although it is not by far more correct than others. In fact it was used mainly from the end of the XVth century, when its political significance had lowered to a component of a composite monarchy being no more an independent entity (although in practicality its states retained independence from Castile). Even then and after, Roussillon remained as an integral part of the Catalan Principality.

Relating to Poictesme, it can be of interest that when the French crown opressed and suppressed the protestants in Guyenne, contingents of Catalan (either from Roussillon or from Catalonia proper) were used.

abdul666 said...

This video can well refer to an old legend of Poictesme -as could also this one, though less precisely located (pleasant, being a variation on the beginning of Carl Orff's 'O Fortuna' from the Carmina Burana).

This one on the other hands clearly alludes to a German 'Gothic' tale; while this one... well, is part of an operetta very popular in Monte-Cristo :)

abdul666 said...

On second thoughts, for the possible coat-of-arms of Poictesme, with reference to the 'red leopard of Poitain' it would be more fitting to *reverse* the Leopard d'Aquitaine (3rd and 8th comments in the thread above), i.e. use a red leopard on a golden field; the claws would stand out better if black.

abdul666 said...

Regarding the possible coat-of-arms of Poictesme (continued))
* Supporters: rarely used in Spain, so may be a mark of French belonging or alignement. Given the proximity of the Pyrenees, a bear and an isard (chamois) would be fitting.
Symmetrically, borders (leaves and grapes? A heraldic beast?) instead of supporters could reflect an 'Iberic' (Catalan &/or Spanish) nature or sympathy.

* Crown:
§ if French or under French 'protectorate' (or for exiles in French service, if under 'Iberic' domination), Poictesme would be a (n ex-, if a French province) Duché or Marche.
§ if 'Iberic' or under 'Iberic' protectorate (or for exiles in Catalan or Castillan service) Poictesme would be a *Principality*; the crown would be of the Aragonese type if associated with independent Catalonia Poictesme being a member of the 'Crowns of Aragon'), of the Castillan type if associated with / part of united by force Spain, or for exiles in 'Castillan' service.

* Shield: if French or Francophile or reflecting a French claim 'Old French' type 1; if 'Iberic' or 'Ibericophile' or supporting an 'Iberic' claim 'Iberic' type 11.

* Sex of the current Ruler (only if [semi-]independent): would change the type of the crown. For a *personal* coat of arms would also change the shape of the shield, but I doubt it would be carried to the *State* coat-of-arms?

abdul666 said...

Regarding the possible coat-of-arms of Poictesme (continued 2))
Political implications of the 3 types of coat of arms:
- French crown (duke or marquess), supporters, French shield: French province or protectorate or ally (possible French prince crown, then?), and exiles from Poictesme under 'Iberic' domination in French service (idem, as a promise of 'liberation'?;

- Spanish crown (prince, Aragonese type), borders, Spanish shield: Catalan province or protectorate or ally, and exiles from Poictesme under French or Castillan domination in Catalan service;

- Spanish crown (prince, Castillan type if semi-independent), borders, Spanish shield: Spanish province (then most likely only a comte crown) or protectorate or ally, and exiles from Poictesme under French or Catalan domination in Castillan service (then probably an Aragonese prince crown, as a 'promise' of 'liberation' -specially if under French domination).

It is quite possible that 2 competing rulers are acknowledged / recognized by different Major Powers: one 'in place' recognized and supported by the 'influential' (occupying) power, the other in exile, recognized and supported by enemies / rivals of the occupying power, specially by *the other* major power. If reduced to a mere province, the 'ruler in place' is the Head of the annexing State.
Potentially complicated by a 'triangular' situation: 'Castillan' Hispania, independent Catalonia and France / Gallia. Following the war of the Quadruple Alliance 'Castillan' Spain and France are probably at odds, their shared ruling family and hostility to Great Britain notwithstanding. Independent Catalonia still resents the cruelty of the War of Independence against 'Castillan Spain'; its attitude toward France depends largely upon how deep it is under British influence, and to some measure upon the current relationships between France and Austria. Also, if Roussillon is still Catalan, or on the opposite is currently included in Poictesme, this province can be a matter of 'disagreement'.

Coming back to the coat-of-arms, the 'ruler in exile' (both rulers, if Poictesme is theoretically independent) can be female: this would be reflected by the crown of the coat-of-arms acknowledged and born by her (their) partisans.

abdul666 said...

Re the possible coat-of-arms of Poictesme (ctd 3)): association with (infantry) flags (and uniforms)?

- Rgts in French service::
- Dr. d'Ordonnance:
# flags with white cross, re 2 ex. above; 'sowing' of gold fl. de lys over the cross if 'Royal';
# Poictesme as French province: not coat of arms;
# Poictesme 'foreign' regiments: coat of arms (1st type above) over the center: the flag with in the cantons bearing as shield the 'Leopard de Poictesme', that with the stripes, for a change, a red Croix de Toulouse over a golden field; a rgt recruited from Huguenots in Poictesme (wishing to gain the benevolence of the French King) would bear a Croix Huguenote instead of a coat-of-arms.
To have both types of units, the 'foreign' can have respectively the vertical stripes arranged differently (4 gold 5 red, the central red 'divided' by the white cross), and the T. cr. entirely gold; the Huguenots could have 2 cantons yellow with a red leopard & 2 red with a white 'dove of the Holy Spirit'.

- Dr. Colonel:
# Poictesme as French province: white cross on white, the cross with lys if 'Royal;
# Poictesme 'foreign' rgts: the same central c-o-a or device as over he Dr. d'Ord., but far larger, whole white field, with lys if 'Royal'.

- Uniforms:
# Poictesme as French province: off-white, French equipment (leathers), red (rgt with T.crosses) or yellow (rgt with stripes) facings.
# Poictesme 'foreign' rgts: idem ('metal' different from the 'French'?), waistcoat of the facing color; Huguenots red facings, pure white waistcoat ('camisards'), red breeches.

- Rgts in Catalan service::
- Dr. d'Ord.: narrower St Jordi red cross on a yellow field; differ by the coat-of-arms (2nd type above, red leopard or X de T on gold) on white, isolated / surrounded by a crown of leaves and roses) over the center. Instead of a Huguenot regiment, a Granaders regiment with a 'parted shield' bearing the Toulouse cross in the central coat-of-arms and red grenades in the 4 cantons.

- Dr. Col.: St Jordi red cross over a white field, same central device as the corresponding Dr. d'Ordonnance.

- Uniforms: French or Spanish (mainly, different position and type of the cartridge box?) according to current diplomatic alignment. Light grey (for a change, and maybe less expensive), red facings, red waistcoat with yellow braiding, or yellow facings, yellow waistcoat with red braiding.
For the Granaders: all in red with yellow facings, abundant buttonholes lacing on the coat (red tape on the cuffs), yellow braiding on the waistcoat (and, for sure, 'gold' as the regimental 'metal'); though 'Grenadiers', in tricorne, but with all other grenadiers features: grenades bag with fuse holder on the shoulder strap, small 'navel' cartridge box (red leather), sabre and probably mustaches.

- Rgts in Castillan service::
- Dr. d'Ord.: red 'Burgundy' cross on a yellow field, coat of arms over the center (details varying with the political situation); to mark regiment, red T. cross, T. leopard or fox respectively in each 'triangle' (the orientation of the beast maybe changing with 'triangle'?).

- Dr. Col.: id° but white field.

- Uniform: Spanish: ° entirely yellow, red facings; ° off-white, red facings, yellow waistcoat; ° off-white, yellow facings, red waistcoat.

abdul666 said...

Re the coat-of-arms of P. (ctd 4): 'Independent' Poictesme
* Generalities
. - Such 'army of Free Poictesme' can be in exile in the service of another Power, like the 'Irishs' in French service were at first a 'British army in exile' supported by the French Treasury, hence on their flags the red cross of St Georges and the English crown.

. - The North-East of Poictesme is more 'French', the South-West 'Catalan'. Thus while the 'shield' of the coat-of-arms always bear the Red Leopard of Poictesme, the general pattern of the c.-o.-a., will be of type 1 above but with a 'French' prince crown, or of the type 2 ('Aragonese') above.

* (Infantry) Flags
. - General pattern:
. ° a white Croix de Toulouse. Given that infantry flags were practically square, # without deformation of the cross its 4 'apical' rings touch the edge of the flag; allow some slight variations in the 'profile' of the X between regiments.
. ° The c.-o.-a. of Poictesme over the center, as described above.
. ° Ord. flag: colored field, if of a single solid color generally some identifying 'device' in the cantons.
C.'s flag: 'white on white', white field and except for some 'elite' units the 'devices' in the cantons are embroidered white on white. Same (full colors) coat-of-arms on the center as the corresponding Dr. D'Ord..

. - Examples: the Gardes de Poictesme:
. ° Generalities:
. *: flags: >Dr. d'Ord.: 2 different fields 'alternating' by cantons: erminois and oriflamme (gold flames on red).
>Dr. Col.: 'white on white' but *by exception* (as e.g. the Gr. de Fr.) the devices in the cantons remain colored, black tails and gold flames.
. *: uniform cut, equipment: as French and Spanish Guards but the buttonhole lace on the coat (piped with the coat color on the cuffs) is of the facing color, that on the front of the waistcoat of the coat color.

. ° Regiments:
. *: 1st ('French') regiment: >Flags: oriflamme on the upper canton close to the pole and the diagonally opposed, erminois in the other 2; coat-of-arms of the 'French' type.
>Uniform: Gardes Françaises, red coat lined / faced yellow ('metal': gold), yellow smallclothes.
. *: 2nd ('Iberic') regiment: >Flags: erminois on the upper canton close to the pole and the diagonally opposed, oriflamme in the other 2; coat-of-arms of the 'Aragonese' type.
>Uniform: Guardias Valonas, yellow coat lined / faced red ('metal': silver), red smallclothes.

abdul666 said...

Re the possible coat-of-arms of Poictesme (ctd 5): 'Independent' Poictesme 2
. - Other regiments: the 11 IR described above could receive such type of flag when joining the 'Army of Poictesme'. Remember, the devices (if any) in the cantons are 'white on white' on the Dr. Col.

. ° 'French' coat-of-arms for the 5 'French', for the 4 'Catholics' the cantons are transposed as such, for the Huguenots the Croix Huguenote appears on the 1st canton on a white field, opposite canton red with a 'white dove', 2 other cantons yellow with a red leopard.

. ° 'Aragonese' coat-of-arms for the 3 'Catalan', for the 1 in red and the Gr. the field is red and the device (X de T. or grenade) is yellow, for the 1 in yellow the field is yellow and the leopard de T. is red.

. ° 'Aragonese' coat-of-arms for the 3 'Castillan', no branch of the X of Burgundy but yellow field with red T. cross or leopard for the 1st 2 (red facings), red field with yellow fox for the 3rd (yellow facings).

Remember the possibility of slight variations of the 'red' and the 'yellow' between regiments, for their uniforms as well, accordingly, as for their flags

abdul666 said...

Regiments from Poictesme : an interesting 'French' flag
* Basis:
. -: the Volontaires Bretons de Kermellec were allowed -in the same way as 'royal' regiments had fleurs de lys - to display ermine on the white cross of their flag; and as for the lys, to keep this 'colored' decoration on the 'white on white' Drapeau Colonel.
(Bretagne and Perche also had 'devices' over the white X, but I don't know if the carried it to the Drapeau Colonel: they were 'regular' units).

. -: several French IR were granted a 'device' over the center of the white cross: Royal des Vaisseaux, Perche (again).

* Poictesme in French service:
. -:one can imagine that a regiment (perhaps if, as the 'Bretons', belonging to the 'Light Troops') could be allowed:
. ° to display a 'sowing' of red Croix de Toulouse (edged gold?) on the 'regulation' white cross of both its flags, Ordonnance and Colonel;
. ° to have the 'French' version of the coat-of-arms of Poictesme over the center of the white cross.

. - As for the distribution of the 'required' yellow and red over the cantons, a system of 'rotating' triangles such as for French Soissonais and Foix would be different enough from the 'stripes' of other regiments.

* 'Independent' Poictesme: the 'translation' is straightforward, keeping what 'appears' of the 'French' cantons as 'discovered' by the white Croix de Toulouse. As for the stripes of other regiments the 'limit' between yellow and red on the Dr. d' Ord. is 'marked' by a white embroidery on the white field of the Dr. Colonel.

Corresponding uniform: could be of the Fusilier de Montagne type: reddish maroon coat lined light (British) scarlet generally worn as a cape, (drab) yellow waistcoat, light (British) scarlet 'apron' (?) edged yellow, off-white baggy breeches, espadrillesheld by red string. The leather piece at the waist were pistol(s), bayonet, dagger... are fixed: natural leather edged blood red and gold yellow, 'cord' blood red and gold yellow. If no 'apron' (absent from many reconstructions), (drab) yellow baggy breeches.